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On June 12 2012 08:10 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote: The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two. If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. yeah that's what we kind of came up with. What do we do with people who already broke a rule? I already mentioned that a claim prior to n0-d1 deadline is helping mafia if they want to bluesnipe and therefore pretty much everyone agreed to make the miller claimes either on the n0->d1 deadline to prevent that or just claim d1 because there's no benefit in claiming n0 from a townie point of view but some from a mafia point of view. Even a late D1 claim is np, It's not like DTs will claim d1 anyways due to sanities. Surely we can't just shoot RoL now that he just claimed some hours ago but I agree that we should hold those standards in general to ensure noones going full retard on the thread in rambo-fashion (sup Wiggles :p) kill: Toadesstern Wait... ##Shot: Toadesstern #Shoot#: Toadesstern Hmmm, I'll have to work on this.
Seriously, though, I disagree with what VE is saying: + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 04:14 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm fine with designating WHO shoots, I'm not so much fine with designating the target. I feel like it will add accountability to whomever is pulling the trigger if we don't designate a target and we can get a better read because of it.
Generally speaking, any game that has more than 1 miller that I've seen has been big games, like the large normals here. That's in general. That being said, I'm ABSOLUTELY NOT ruling out the possibility of there being more than 1 as I have no idea what to expect out of this setup.
I'm for miller claiming whenever - we can decide after the claim whether it makes sense and whether we believe it or not. I think just forcing people to shoot whoever they want is a bad idea. It means that people will shoot people for bad reasons (like how people vote people for bad reasons, but that doesn't end up with their brains on the floor) and then we'll shoot that person who used the bad reason, and so on. Sure, it makes them 'accountable', but it does so at the expense of making the rest of town not accountable at all for the kill that cycle, and it means we'll most likely be tied up for another cycle dealing with a bad lynch. Really, it sounds like a good way to get some back to back night cycles and end the game early.
So, FoS: VE for pushing that idea twice.
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On June 12 2012 14:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:56 VisceraEyes wrote: Had your gun taken away? Is that real? Did you just say that?
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Yeah, interesting though. So the mafia have additional powers to take away a gun. Although this is interesting. If the mafia have the power to take away my gun why would they do that while trying to kill me? Someone tried to kill me and someone tried to take my gun. I can see why the SK would have that power, he is bulletproof at night but needs a way to survive day hits as well so that is definitely a possibility. I find it interesting that the SK would use that power on me since he needs as many people to die as fast as possible and taking my gun would just make me look a bit guilty. The only way that would make sense is if my first accusation was right and toad was the SK. That is essentially the purpose of that power. On the same note that would make the SK really powerful, but the set up makes him really weak to day shooting. I would say that would make up for the SK's shortcomings in the current set up so it is probably the most likely. On the otherhand the mafia has 4 members and I'm sure that could be a power that is functionally a day RB. You claimed Miller. People wanted millers to shoot first to prove they're a miller. If they take your gun away, it makes you look like scum because you can't shoot. Or, you're faking someone taking your gun away because you're scum who fake-claimed Miller. The hit could be a fake, or maybe a medic protected you and SK shot you. There's lots of possibilities here. I'm not taking your claim at face-value. Would you mind typing shoot into the thread so that we know you actually don't have a weapon? That at least tells us you aren't a lying town or scum that can shoot.
Also VE, you never responded at all to my FOS. Not in the mood?
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RoL, fix your formatting, and aim at yourself or someone scummy instead of someone looking good right now. If you don't, I'll shoot you.
On June 12 2012 15:00 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 14:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On June 12 2012 14:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 13:56 VisceraEyes wrote: Had your gun taken away? Is that real? Did you just say that?
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Yeah, interesting though. So the mafia have additional powers to take away a gun. Although this is interesting. If the mafia have the power to take away my gun why would they do that while trying to kill me? Someone tried to kill me and someone tried to take my gun. I can see why the SK would have that power, he is bulletproof at night but needs a way to survive day hits as well so that is definitely a possibility. I find it interesting that the SK would use that power on me since he needs as many people to die as fast as possible and taking my gun would just make me look a bit guilty. The only way that would make sense is if my first accusation was right and toad was the SK. That is essentially the purpose of that power. On the same note that would make the SK really powerful, but the set up makes him really weak to day shooting. I would say that would make up for the SK's shortcomings in the current set up so it is probably the most likely. On the otherhand the mafia has 4 members and I'm sure that could be a power that is functionally a day RB. You claimed Miller. People wanted millers to shoot first to prove they're a miller. If they take your gun away, it makes you look like scum because you can't shoot. Or, you're faking someone taking your gun away because you're scum who fake-claimed Miller. The hit could be a fake, or maybe a medic protected you and SK shot you. There's lots of possibilities here. I'm not taking your claim at face-value. Would you mind typing shoot into the thread so that we know you actually don't have a weapon? That at least tells us you aren't a lying town or scum that can shoot. Also VE, you never responded at all to my FOS. Not in the mood? Sorry Wiggles, but this is interesting stuff. You are suspicious of me because....you think it's better for town to choose the shot targets, yes? Can I assume that you've noticed that I'm now voicing my consent to target gonzaw today and that's why you're even talking to me rather than just writing me off as scum? Honestly I'd forgotten that you even said anything because my thinking has radically shifted in that regard. When I said that, I wasn't realizing that the people taking shots are more than likely town anyway statistically, so it makes sense for town to aim them. Sorry man, it takes a second for me to wrap my head around mechanics Suspicious because you were pushing something that's anti-town, yeah. I was just surprised that you completely ignored it.
I don't think Gonzaw looks very good right now. I don't like how he's completely focused on himself and his defense and not actually trying to find mafia (not just SK). It's Day 1, so any defense of yourself can't be that comprehensive, because all you can do is defend your posting or point to meta reasons. You can't actually show what you've done in the game that makes you not scum. So, that makes just focusing on finding scum the better thing to do. If you don't want town to kill you, find a better target.
I think the best plan right now though, would be to find a second target, and then either make that person shoot gonzaw, or have gonzaw shoot that person depending on who's scummier. I don't have one in mind right now though, unless RoL refuses to prove he's not lying at least. I need to re-read.
So yeah, if RoL doesn't prove he's not lying, I'm shooting him or making Gonzaw do it. If you're a miller and self-aware, I assume we still think it's a good idea to claim, so do it. Gonzaw, instead of making ineffectual defenses, tell me who you think is mafia.
That's all for now.
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I don't want to have anyone shoot until RoL comes in and proves he's not lying. He can shoot Gonzaw if he likes. Also, Gonzaw, shoot again with the right formatting.
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To make sure this isn't all pointless, a VT can theoretically shoot themselves, right?
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On June 13 2012 03:37 rastaban wrote: Well he also messed up the formatting as well, but does it matter, refusing to shoot and not shooting are the same thing correct? I mean I think we all believe he can't shoot or he would have, that is nothing to hide. The real questions is, is he Scum or is he Blue? He claimed Miller on Night 1. Then in the morning he claimed he had his gun taken away. He needs to shoot. If he does, and nothing happens, then it means he either had his gun taken away, or he was lying about being a miller, same thing as what we were at. If he can shoot, then he lied about having his gun taken away, and I'd say he's scum then. The whole point of people claiming miller was to get them to shoot as soon as possible to confirm themselves. Then he claims he can't shoot anymore, and introduces the worry of there being a role that can take away our guns. There's no reason to make that lie as town. This is to make sure he's at least not lying about not having a gun.
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On June 13 2012 05:25 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 04:55 Toadesstern wrote: RoL is the kind of player that lurks 47.9 hours just to ninja vote in the last 3 minnutes if I remember correctly. WBG was mafia together with him that game. Just saying, if he's not coming back we should have a #2 ready to shoot :p RoL will lurk forever. And constantly excuse why he havent posted while at the same time promising to do so. He does so as both town or mafia. I wouldn't wait around for him tbh. I don't get why gonsaw is so afraid of claiming his full role. Scum already know now that he is a blue (or their buddy). Whats the big difference if he is medic/doc/watcher.. I also don't get the 324 or whatever.. The only reasons I can think of is that he is having a hard time figuring out how to fake claim properly or feels like he is already outed as scum and is thus wasting our time. I really want him dead by now. I disagree with wiggles about having RoL to shoot. If he can or can't shoot does solve the problem that it comes down to if we believe his miller claim or not. If he shoots and actually kill someone he might be the GF. (most likely because why lie about all the gun stealing biz?) If he (tries to) shoot and no one dies we still don't know i he is a miller telling the truth or a lying scum goon. So all in all it doesn't matter. Wait, what?
"If he shoots and kills someone, he's probably Godfather If he shoots and doesn't kill, we don't learn anything new Therefore, it doesn't matter if he shoots"
Is there some kind of harm in him shooting? No, there isn't. Either we catch a GF or scum that can shoot, or we confirm what he's saying about not being able to shoot, and if he doesn't do anything or play like town we shoot him, since he's either a gunless miller or mafia, and there's no way to tell except by behaviour.
There's no downside to him shooting, and we can gain from it. So, why does it not matter?
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You guys should stop that, same reason we don't allow public-key cryptography.
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Ok, I finally caught up. Sorry for not paying as much attention to this game, but it's been a spammy cluster-fuck, so that makes it harder to read and actually keep an order of who's saying/doing what in my head. I'll try to re-read everything until it's coherent, haha.
Right now, RoL is looking terrible to me, and I think we should shoot him today or tomorrow. He's just making excuses for his activity, but even when he is here, he refuses to post on other players, but instead focuses on his miller-claim and the mechanics around that. Remember this post? Especially the bolded?
On June 14 2012 11:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote: Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? The only downside I mentioned is if I claimed and instead of the town believing me or at least not questioning me that much until it was necessary that the entire town actually just called me scum for claiming or some other shenanigans. Even before I had my gun taken the entire discussion turned to me being a Miller and whether or not I was scum. As I said, the only downside is if you all chose to focus on me + the claim. Claiming puts pressure on me to play a really protown game which I intend to do when the day post comes.This downside depends on the towns attitude and whether or not you guys are stupid even to solely focus on me and my claim or actually do important shit. The actual benefits were in a few limited scenarios it would save a DT claiming and a wasted day shot which didn't depend on town stupidity but on how the game played out. I basically weighed the possible game outcome of the DT ending up checking me vs the odds of you all being dumb. Since town stupidity is something we can analyze and don't have to attribute to luck we can punish people for that, however if it comes down to the DT scenario or one like it it is completely luck based which would benefit the mafia. You guys are proving that I wagered wrong by focusing on this so much. The only time it deserved attention was when I claimed I didn't have a gun. And since that promise? + Show Spoiler +On June 14 2012 12:07 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Kenpachi you have 4 fucking posts. On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up. On June 14 2012 12:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I don't know its one day, all I know is its temporary. I would imagine its one day though. On June 14 2012 13:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Alright Kenpachi give me two reasons not to kill you. On June 14 2012 13:27 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: so here is how this is going to work. I am going to kill one of two people when I wake up. Those two people are Kenpachi and Toadesstern.
The town can feel free to give input on this, but I want to hear each one of you tell me why I should kill the other. All we get are throw-away spam posts about shooting one of Kenpachi or Toad, with absolutely no reasoning or rationale. There's also no follow-up either. Instead, we get more of this:
On June 14 2012 14:11 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: So I changed my mind in how I played this, I wrote that last part before I got my PM back from a mod. I do NOT have my gun back yet. I considered playing this out to milk info from kenpachi and toad but I figure in a 24 hour cycle its probably not the best idea nor the most town-orientated idea to lie to all of you for 20 or so hours.
It would of been analytical gold for me, but I'm sure I wouldn't live until it became useful if I tried it.
On June 15 2012 00:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 22:29 rastaban wrote: ROL can't shoot anyway, he just admitted he didn't get it back yet, I was actually surprised he thought he would. I assumed that if had legitimately lost his gun on a temporary basis it would work like a mis fire so it takes 1 day to renew (today) and then tomorrow it would be available again. I figured if it was an SK power that its purpose was to give the SK enough time to kill a person before it could kill them. I didn't think it would last for multiple days because I judging by some of the other roles powers can't be used multiple times in a row on the same person, I wrongly took that to the next level and assumed I would have my gun back after a day. Discussion about his gun being missing, Where exactly is that "really protown game" he promised? It's not like he hasn't been around since the day post. So, instead of posting about any reads, or even any thoughts at all about other players, he posts about his gun instead. He's refusing to give any thoughts on other players, instead he's focusing on talking about stuff that does absolutely nothing to help us find mafia. He's doing this willingly after making a promise to do otherwise. This guy is scum, and we should kill him.
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On June 22 2012 01:35 Zealos wrote: Not to mention he has mr in his name, so he's probably going to be lying. YO! That's not cool!
:p
Anyways, thanks for hosting Ace. I'm sorry I didn't give this game the attention it deserved, but I had to duck out for the first bit and then the spam and real-time nature made it hard to get back into it.
GG Town!
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